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Australian Football Stuff - not worthy of a thread

marinermick

Well-Known Member
"Bosnich said expanding to a second division and introducing a promotion and relegation system needed to be a priority."

Agree with Bozza on this point. Get a healthy second division happening. Your expansion clubs should then come from the promotion and relegation system after the second division is established. Adding clubs now is putting the horse before the cart.
 

Insertnamehere

Well-Known Member
"Bosnich said expanding to a second division and introducing a promotion and relegation system needed to be a priority."

Agree with Bozza on this point. Get a healthy second division happening. Your expansion clubs should then come from the promotion and relegation system after the second division is established. Adding clubs now is putting the horse before the cart.
Disagree whole heartedly. How do you fund a 2nd division? If you've got owners going to cop the loses in the first 5 years they may as well invest in the HAL.
Also are you going to sell tv rights? How much for? HAL can't even find good value.
Also the HAL is slowly spluttering to death because of the FFA and their governance issues, so are you going to add twice as much work to a disorganisation?
I don't get the obsession with pnr, other than to keep us in Asia. I'd rather one well run, well funded 20 team HAL than 2 piddly comps cannibalizing each other. The market isn't the same as Europe. It's more like the USA. Minus the hundreds of millions of people.
 

VicMariner

Well-Known Member
The HAL is slowly spluttering to death because the FFA are trying to appeal to mums and dads, NRL/AFL types, the hostile media and anyone else who couldn't care less about football! That's why this country has Euro snobs...the very core people who should be the mainstay of HAL support don't give a monkey's because the FFA "product" is contrived, fake bullshit.
Make the best football comp, pro/rel, transfer fees, NO finals at the end of the season, pump up FFA CUP finals instead, no rigged FFA cup, no salary cap, no more franchises, etc, etc, etc....
 

marinermick

Well-Known Member
Disagree whole heartedly. How do you fund a 2nd division? If you've got owners going to cop the loses in the first 5 years they may as well invest in the HAL.
Also are you going to sell tv rights? How much for? HAL can't even find good value.
Also the HAL is slowly spluttering to death because of the FFA and their governance issues, so are you going to add twice as much work to a disorganisation?
I don't get the obsession with pnr, other than to keep us in Asia. I'd rather one well run, well funded 20 team HAL than 2 piddly comps cannibalizing each other. The market isn't the same as Europe. It's more like the USA. Minus the hundreds of millions of people.

NPL clubs are funding themselves now with no major problems. Some are offering better wages than A-league clubs. TV rights would be attractive and this would cover travel and extra admin costs.Run modestly and it can certainly be viable.

Every season there would renewed interest in the league with extra teams and the poorer A-league clubs will have to pick up their game to stay competitive.

The FFA governance is a separate issue. The same reasons you infer with a second tier comp would still be there and even exacerbated in an expanded A-league format.

Whichever way you argue it is very clear that the FFA has not, and never had, a clear strategic plan for the A-League. the fact that we are still deciding where the two new expansion clubs will come from is a joke. There will be no thought where to place these clubs. It will come down to which club

Even more of a joke is that these two clubs will not be funded like the others.

What is even more concerning is that expansion will come from clubs that have no history of governance, no history of football administration, no current ties to their local communities, no current fanbase etc. etc. We are, again, trying to manufacture engagement, especially in a time when engagement in the A-League is at an all time low. That was fine during the early days of the A-league but won't wash now.

Expansion through this method is doomed.
 

Insertnamehere

Well-Known Member
NPL clubs are funding themselves now with no major problems. Some are offering better wages than A-league clubs. TV rights would be attractive and this would cover travel and extra admin costs.Run modestly and it can certainly be viable.

Every season there would renewed interest in the league with extra teams and the poorer A-league clubs will have to pick up their game to stay competitive.

The FFA governance is a separate issue. The same reasons you infer with a second tier comp would still be there and even exacerbated in an expanded A-league format.

Whichever way you argue it is very clear that the FFA has not, and never had, a clear strategic plan for the A-League. the fact that we are still deciding where the two new expansion clubs will come from is a joke. There will be no thought where to place these clubs. It will come down to which club

Even more of a joke is that these two clubs will not be funded like the others.

What is even more concerning is that expansion will come from clubs that have no history of governance, no history of football administration, no current ties to their local communities, no current fanbase etc. etc. We are, again, trying to manufacture engagement, especially in a time when engagement in the A-League is at an all time low. That was fine during the early days of the A-league but won't wash now.

Expansion through this method is doomed.
Hang on a second. Didn't these clubs that you want to join the HAL and 2HAL die a grizzly death that required the institution of a league with no attachment to the history of football administration that caused their downfall? The NSL was a terribly run competition, resulting in the Crawford report. Although the FFA is now boardering on where the SA/NSL was in its dieing days.
 

marinermick

Well-Known Member
Hang on a second. Didn't these clubs that you want to join the HAL and 2HAL die a grizzly death that required the institution of a league with no attachment to the history of football administration that caused their downfall? The NSL was a terribly run competition, resulting in the Crawford report. Although the FFA is now boardering on where the SA/NSL was in its dieing days.

Many clubs didn't but the league did through poor administration and the involvement of the two major political parties. Your argument is akin to saying that Melbourne Victory is poorly run because the A-League is poorly run.

My argument is that the club's ability to be a robust business entity is tested through the B-League. Those that thrive, and embrace the wider community, will be competitive and can make the step up to the A-League. Those that don't can be replaced by other clubs coming in. This would not be a bigger loss than losing an A-League club. North Queensland and Gold Coast was a fiasco and embarrassing.

Expansion to date has been a disaster for the A-League because we have tried to manufacture football culture. We have lost Townsville and Gold Coast, and Heart was only saved by Arab billionaires who continue to pump money into a plastic club with no culture. They would be dead by now if not for this. The only success has been Wanderers.

We can't afford to keep making these expansion mistakes. FFA will only award a licence to the highest bidder to a club that has no real ties to the football community. Southern Expansion is the perfect example of this.

And you want a twenty team A-League when are our hit rate already is 75%, at best 50%!
 

Insertnamehere

Well-Known Member
Many clubs didn't but the league did through poor administration and the involvement of the two major political parties. Your argument is akin to saying that Melbourne Victory is poorly run because the A-League is poorly run.

My argument is that the club's ability to be a robust business entity is tested through the B-League. Those that thrive, and embrace the wider community, will be competitive and can make the step up to the A-League. Those that don't can be replaced by other clubs coming in. This would not be a bigger loss than losing an A-League club. North Queensland and Gold Coast was a fiasco and embarrassing.

Expansion to date has been a disaster for the A-League because we have tried to manufacture football culture. We have lost Townsville and Gold Coast, and Heart was only saved by Arab billionaires who continue to pump money into a plastic club with no culture. They would be dead by now if not for this. The only success has been Wanderers.

We can't afford to keep making these expansion mistakes. FFA will only award a licence to the highest bidder to a club that has no real ties to the football community. Southern Expansion is the perfect example of this.

And you want a twenty team A-League when are our hit rate already is 75%, at best 50%!
I'm saying the league is poorly run because wages and super have gone unpaid by clubs, most of metrics have the league going backwards and the league doesn't exist for anyone but those with fox. Those are club and association generated issues and exactly the same issues the NSL had. Unfortunately the Crawford report hasn't been implemented in its entirety and is why we're partly at a point of semi crisis.
As for expansion I'd say it's been hit and miss because the association hasn't gone for the right formula. MLS model is where we are at in oz. The major codes take all their guidance from the US, as should this code. It's about entertainment, not history and culture.
WSW and City negate GCU and Fury. NZ teams should never have been imo.
It's all about the right place and $$$ now.
 

pjennings

Well-Known Member
I don't know the solution - but if a second division is sourced through the NPL it is likely to be dominated by Sydney and Melbourne teams since the NSW and Vic NPL competitions are the strongest and the great majority of teams in those competitions come from the capital cities. The problem there is that only 40% of Australians live in those cities.

There has been interest from all over the country from Freemantle, Joondalup, Adelaide, Sunshine Coast, Central West NSW, Geelong, Hobart, Ipswich, Townsville, Cairns, Canberra and the NSW South Coast (predominantly the Illawarra). We should not be stifling this interest, we should be nurturing it as well as integrating the state NPLs into a national NPL.

TBH - the end game needs to be the integration of a full football ladder from the HAL to a second and possible third division to a national NPL down to state NPLs - down to regions.
 

marinermick

Well-Known Member
I don't know the solution - but if a second division is sourced through the NPL it is likely to be dominated by Sydney and Melbourne teams since the NSW and Vic NPL competitions are the strongest and the great majority of teams in those competitions come from the capital cities. The problem there is that only 40% of Australians live in those cities.

There has been interest from all over the country from Freemantle, Joondalup, Adelaide, Sunshine Coast, Central West NSW, Geelong, Hobart, Ipswich, Townsville, Cairns, Canberra and the NSW South Coast (predominantly the Illawarra). We should not be stifling this interest, we should be nurturing it as well as integrating the state NPLs into a national NPL.

TBH - the end game needs to be the integration of a full football ladder from the HAL to a second and possible third division to a national NPL down to state NPLs - down to regions.

Exactly right. It needs to be nurtured from the bottom up. Not manufactured from the top down.
 

marinermick

Well-Known Member
Don't think that was the crux of the commentary made

Really? Am I reading wrong or is PJ saying that we should incorporate these clubs in a B and even a C League to have a pathway to the A-League. The exact points I was making above. Let the clubs admitted prove they are worthy of being in the A-League through success in the lower leagues, not throw ten new clubs in the A-League and then see if they survive or not.
 

pjennings

Well-Known Member
The quick answer is that there supposedly be expansion to 12 teams in the HAL from 2019/2020. At the same time, unsuccessful bids, whether they are from regions or NPL clubs should go into lower leagues above the state NPLs. There are plenty of teams and regions to accommodate 2 more layers. Then connect them all from top to bottom. The difference I see between MM and myself is that I would source those leagues from both the State NPLs and the unsuccessful regions/NPL clubs that are bidding for the HAL currently. This allows access for regions which would have no hope for access otherwise and opens up a pathway for the 60% of Australians that do not live in Sydney or Melbourne.

Promotion and relegation could be introduced after a couple of years to give the regions breathing space at which time we should be having P & R to and from all rungs of the ladder.
 

marinermick

Well-Known Member
The quick answer is that there supposedly be expansion to 12 teams in the HAL from 2019/2020. At the same time, unsuccessful bids, whether they are from regions or NPL clubs should go into lower leagues above the state NPLs. There are plenty of teams and regions to accommodate 2 more layers. Then connect them all from top to bottom. The difference I see between MM and myself is that I would source those leagues from both the State NPLs and the unsuccessful regions/NPL clubs that are bidding for the HAL currently. This allows access for regions which would have no hope for access otherwise and opens up a pathway for the 60% of Australians that do not live in Sydney or Melbourne.

Promotion and relegation could be introduced after a couple of years to give the regions breathing space at which time we should be having P & R to and from all rungs of the ladder.

I never said we wouldn't source new clubs from other regional areas in the B/C Leagues. I was dead against establishing new clubs in the A-League that didn't already have proven capabilities behind it. Such a dangerous path to go down which has already led to failure.

My NPL club comment was in relation to the comment that a B-League couldn't be funded. Many NPL clubs are servicing themselves quite well now in large budgets. A leap to a sustainable B-League would not be a massive stretch.

The essence of my argument is that the validity of future A-Leagues has to be tested in a lesser league where the stakes and repercussions of failure is not as great.

Anyone can write a good business plan.
 

pjennings

Well-Known Member
I never said we wouldn't source new clubs from other regional areas in the B/C Leagues. I was dead against establishing new clubs in the A-League that didn't already have proven capabilities behind it. Such a dangerous path to go down which has already led to failure.

My NPL club comment was in relation to the comment that a B-League couldn't be funded. Many NPL clubs are servicing themselves quite well now in large budgets. A leap to a sustainable B-League would not be a massive stretch.

The essence of my argument is that the validity of future A-Leagues has to be tested in a lesser league where the stakes and repercussions of failure is not as great.

Anyone can write a good business plan.

All good then - we are in violent agreement!!
 

sydmariner

Well-Known Member
A-League introduce international windows

The move will see the season shifted back two weeks, beginning in mid-October and finishing in mid-May.

And it's been met with delight by club coaches, who have long campaigned for the change to avoid player unavailability.

Big-name coaches Kevin Muscat and Graham Arnold are among those who have called for the A-League to close down during FIFA World Cup qualifying and international friendlies.

Muscat saw several players depart on national team duty this season, while Arnold - set to take on the Socceroos job after the season - has previously intimated the rule prevented him signing internationally involved players.

However the biggest winner from the move could be Wellington Phoenix.

New Zealand's sole professional outfit has long been filled with All Whites and international breaks have left the club bereft of senior players.

That will end from next season, with windows in October, November and March to be recognised



There is however an exception for the month-long 2019 Asian Cup.

The A-League will continue unabated through January, when the Socceroos look to defend their title in the United Arab Emirates.

FFA chief executive David Gallop said the move was brokered with broadcasters Fox Sports.

"We have been conscious always of the need to balance the benefits of week to week continuity in the league against the benefits of stopping for international breaks," he said.

"After extensive discussions with the clubs and with Fox Sports over recent weeks we have all agreed to incorporate the international breaks."

With the season remaining the same length, more mid-week matches seem inevitable to incorporate the move.

An FFA spokesperson said league chiefs would also seek to retain flexibility for clubs competing in the AFC Champions League, which has been appreciated by Sydney FC and Melbourne Victory this season.

O'Rourke said a further decision would come regarding women's football, with two international breaks scheduled during the W-League season.
 

pjennings

Well-Known Member
On the Outside, Looking In
April 25, 2018

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By PFA Chief Executive John Didulica

To choose football in this country, is to choose the life of the outsider.

We all have our experiences. As a kid, the NSL was a different universe to the playground. It was a secret society unlocked not by password or handshake but by culinary tastes and exotic languages. My weekend adoration of Adzic and Bosnich would switch, from Monday to Friday, to Ablett and Border. This was done without second thought, so conditioned and compartmentalised was the inner working of even a young mind. Your soccer world existed separately to your life as an Australian.

As an adult, little changes. The distant table at the black-tie function watching luminaries from squash and swimming and sailing being inducted into halls of fame. Meanwhile, the deeds of Farina, Davidson, Viduka, Salisbury and Kewell drift anonymously into history; living only in the stories passed from member to member within the secret society. Football has only two living players, Baartz and Wilson, in the Sport Australia Hall of Fame. Level with canoeing. Baseball has more players inducted. Hockey has ten; rugby union eleven.

At times, in our desperation to be invited to the ball, we are prepared to be strangers in our own game.

Objectively, I always considered football’s story and Australia’s story to be perfectly symmetrical. Yet, despite having punctuated public consciousness in quite profound ways at different times, football has never been embedded as a thread within the orthodoxy of Australian life, be it media or politics or celebrity.

Increasingly, the mythology of Anzac Day and its observance acts as an anchor to define what it means to be Australian or to lead an authentically Australian life. Unlike other sports, football’s connection to the Anzacs is rarely, if ever, eulogised. This flies in the face of history and does a disservice to the contribution of football and footballers to the Australian narrative.

In 1916, the Sun newspaper in Sydney under the headline “Footballers’ Response” reported that of the 1500 players registered with the Metropolitan Association (one association in Sydney) some 1200 “answered the Empire’s call”.

Letters published in the Gosford Times in October 1916, from the pen of then Labor candidate, Captain HJ Connell, told stories of soldiers on the battlefield playing “soccer”, or at least spending their time looking for “sticks” to erect as goals.

West Wallsend, described by the Newcastle Morning Herald and Miners’ Advocate as “one of the keenest districts to be found in New South Wales”, lost so many players to the Great War (44 in total), that it did not have enough players to field a team to “defend their second place from the previous season”.

In Newcastle alone, 500 of the region’s 625 registered players enlisted in the Great War.

Ironically, the Newcastle Sun would prophesise a bright future for football, on the back of the football community’s visible contribution to the war effort: “the northern soccerites left for active service in such great numbers that, coupled with the great advance in public favour in which the game has made, bodes well for the future of the game”.

In “Football and War – Australia and Vietnam 1967-1972”, authors Roy Hay and Bill Murray piece together the tale of a group of young Australians who were dropped in Saigon in 1967 at the height of the Vietnam War to play football.

Those Australians would emerge with our first ever international trophy and the tournament would be described as the birth of the Socceroos.

Fast forward 41 years to last Tuesday evening.

Paul Lederer stood on stage deep in the heartland of Western Sydney with a trophy under his arm. He arrived in Australia when he was 10 years old with his extended family, including his uncle Andrew. In 1956, the Lederer family had become refugees after losing their livelihoods amid the collapse of the Hungarian Revolution and would, under the care of the United Nations, set sail for Australia.

Now, as a billionaire businessman and owner of Western Sydney Wanderers, Paul would hand over the trophy for National Youth League Player of the Year.

The trophy was handed to Abraham Majok – a young man who himself arrived in Australia as a refugee after being born to South Sudanese parents in a Kenyan refugee camp.

This was the virtuous cycle of Australian life in full view. A nation welcoming a European refugee boy to its shores who in turn would build a platform that would allow another boy, two generations later, an opportunity to build a transformative life in his adopted country.

There are no shortage of commentators trying to tell us what it means to be Australian, particularly on a sacred day like Anzac Day. What is Australia if not the sum of our collective experiences and the story of its people. That football is, and has been, an integral part of shaping this nation is inescapable.

Football has given too much to this country to be content with standing on the outside, looking in.

Thanks to Andy Harper for providing reference material relating to World War I.

http://pfa.net.au/from-the-chief-executive/on-the-outside-looking-in/
 

sydmariner

Well-Known Member
Wellington Phoenix have today released the following statement regarding speculation around the club's Hyundai A-League licence and its future.

"As a club we are loath to comment on speculation around the club but given the paucity of fact checking by media outlets we are responding to some recent stories by two of those outlets," the statement read.

"On Wednesday Fairfax media carried a story stating “South Melbourne says it is also looking to do some sort of deal with the Phoenix...” and that they “ had initiated talks with the Nix almost a year ago”.

"Fairfax ran that story without contacting the Phoenix and without bothering to check the facts.

"For the record the Phoenix are not doing any deal with South Melbourne, we are not in negotiations with them and the last official contact that the Phoenix had with South Melbourne was August 2016.

"One phone call from Fairfax would have established this.

"Today SBS have published a story claiming, amongst other things, that the Brisbane Strikers, another expansion club, “want to make a stand-alone purchase, whilst the Phoenix are seeking to maintain a footprint in the form of team colours, or a percentage of ownership”. They go on to quote Strikers Chairman Bruce Atterton-Evans “ I can say talks are ongoing” whilst declining to divulge any of the detail of the negotiations.

"They also quote another apparent associate of the Strikers, Miron Bleiberg stating that the club had been ahead of the curve in their approach to Wellington and “... they’ve had a few more approaches but ours still stands”.

"This is pure fairy tale stuff. The Phoenix have made no approach to the Brisbane Strikers, we have had no discussions with them and there are no talks on going. Can we make it any clearer than that.

"No one from SBS fact checked this article with the Phoenix, it doesn’t even rank as mediocre journalism.

"The SBS article also states, following on from the Fairfax article, that David Dome the GM of the Phoenix and Rob Morrison the Chairman, visited Bill Papastergiadis from South Melbourne last year in Melbourne, “seeking to off load 25% of the club”.

"This is not true.

"The only meeting the Phoenix had in Melbourne, with South Melbourne, took place in June 2016 and that was in response to an approach from South Melbourne to the Wellington Phoenix. There has been no contact since August 2016 , apart from an email from South Melbourne three days ago which the Phoenix have not replied to.

"It would appear that some of the expansion clubs think it is good business to conduct their negotiations via the media. That is not a view shared by the Wellington Phoenix.

"Although we do not want to respond to each piece of speculation, we will endeavour to keep the fans, members and sponsors updated where possible, especially when the media is an apparent adapter of Vinge’s pseudo-laws.

"Listen to this full audio interview for more information: https://bit.ly/2qY8lb"
 

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