Draft Proposal for FFA Cup

[tuftman]

Crucial factor is to do away with finals and launch the cup in the same season.

Agree with that 100%.

I also think it's important at the same time to ensure in the league everyone plays each other home and away the same amount of times.  ie play all teams twice or four times not three as it is at present.That would make winning the league far more credible and remove any lingering excuse for a finals series.

Seriously dont understand why we should throw away the extra income, and extra football of the finals. Why have less games? Why give away the extra crowds, media attention and excitment?

Cup football is a very big yes. In europe they  have super cups(which i would also like to see between cup winner and league winner)

Super cups are still no match for finals football, though are of the same idea.

"Finals series" is a concept that was created exclusively for television, nothing more.  To use this year's NRL series as an example, what reward is there in seeing a team (The Warriors) that was not consistent enough over 26 weeks to be anywhere _near_ the top be one game away from being crowned the champions of that season??

It is an artifical creation that has no basis in reality.  Adelaide were the most consistent team in Season 1, owned all before them, yet we have to put up with the "inaugural Champions Sydney FC" bullshit.  The most thrilling round of football thus far in the A-League was our triumph on Super Sunday last season.  We were the best team _over the length of a season_, yet we have the bullshit of "Jets are Champions".   Being the best over 21 weeks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> winning one 90 minute playoff that is artifically constructed.

Take out the finals series, have an extra round of games, plus cup weekends, and there's your extra money that you'd lose from no finals.

Summary: Finals = Fail

+1

I dont really see how being the better side over a 90 minute period qualifies a team to be considered the champions. Last season we where the best team over 21 rounds, and we get the tag of premiers. The Jets win a game tagged as the HAL Grand Final, and are considered champions, it just doesnt make sense. Hopefully the introduction of extra teams and/or extra rounds eradicates the need for the money spinning finals series. The top leagues throughout the world dont have a playoffs series, and due to their cup competitions, have the cash cow and excitement that comes with do or die matches...as a_seperate_competition.

Knowing the FFA, if/when they introduce the FFA cup, they'll still include the post season cup claiming that it raises the profile of the game or some such. This is the role of the FFA cup, to take football to regional areas, do the bums on seats merchandise selling money making activities+provide a definitive do-or-die competition.

The decision about how big to make the competition I don't think needs to be solved in one blow. I think the first FFA cup could perhaps only include the HAL sides and State League sides. Gradually expanding from this, to include regional club sides such as Forza's beloved OVA and so forth. Another idea would be that the lower seeded sides get home advantage, to try and get HAL sides to regional Australia and raise the profile of the game in areas that could become goldmines for football. Obviously once the competition reaches its final stages play the games at the big stadiums to maximise value. For arguments sake say that CCM are drawn to play OVA. The benefits of playing the game at Bluetongue stadium are:

-Couple of thousand attending, you would assume that the Mariners would walk all over OVA. Rendering this game a training exercise and not much more

Playing this game at Scully Park(I dont know if OVA actually has a home ground-Forza this is your bit)

-Similiar attendance BUT bringing the stars to regional Australia means that kids can see players like Matty Simon, Adrian Caceras etc in action, and see that they have attained their goals, and inspire kids to do the same. Merchandising sales would be higher I would think, gives a financial boost to the host club-in the examples case OVA. And leaves open the possibility of a giant-killing act, which then raises interest within the town, as the local boys, on the local ground have done the impossible y'know.

Its all a pipedream of course, as I'm sure the FFA will have their own ideas, and their own agenda linked to the ideas.

Note- By the time this comp is up and running Matty and Adrian I would think will be overseas, but I just used the name to represent our star players.

 

[Jesus]

Crucial factor is to do away with finals and launch the cup in the same season.

Agree with that 100%.

I also think it's important at the same time to ensure in the league everyone plays each other home and away the same amount of times.  ie play all teams twice or four times not three as it is at present.That would make winning the league far more credible and remove any lingering excuse for a finals series.

Seriously dont understand why we should throw away the extra income, and extra football of the finals. Why have less games? Why give away the extra crowds, media attention and excitment?

Cup football is a very big yes. In europe they  have super cups(which i would also like to see between cup winner and league winner)

Super cups are still no match for finals football, though are of the same idea.

"Finals series" is a concept that was created exclusively for television, nothing more.  To use this year's NRL series as an example, what reward is there in seeing a team (The Warriors) that was not consistent enough over 26 weeks to be anywhere _near_ the top be one game away from being crowned the champions of that season??

It is an artifical creation that has no basis in reality.  Adelaide were the most consistent team in Season 1, owned all before them, yet we have to put up with the "inaugural Champions Sydney FC" bullshit.  The most thrilling round of football thus far in the A-League was our triumph on Super Sunday last season.  We were the best team _over the length of a season_, yet we have the bullshit of "Jets are Champions".   Being the best over 21 weeks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> winning one 90 minute playoff that is artifically constructed.

Take out the finals series, have an extra round of games, plus cup weekends, and there's your extra money that you'd lose from no finals.

Summary: Finals = Fail

Leagues and cups are also artificial creations, they were not their at the beginning of the game. So are referees. Who cares? They work, they are popular. They give us much needed media time. They make money. I am not alone in prefering a finals game to a season game. It is the cup atmosphere. It in no way diminished a cup. You could claim it diminishes the league. But It also adds to the league. And only diminishes the league while people are of the opinion that being champions is more important to being premiers. If gthey think that that wont change. No different to people thinking cup winners are more important to league winners.

Crucial factor is to do away with finals and launch the cup in the same season.

Agree with that 100%.

I also think it's important at the same time to ensure in the league everyone plays each other home and away the same amount of times.  ie play all teams twice or four times not three as it is at present.That would make winning the league far more credible and remove any lingering excuse for a finals series.

Seriously dont understand why we should throw away the extra income, and extra football of the finals. Why have less games? Why give away the extra crowds, media attention and excitment?

Cup football is a very big yes. In europe they  have super cups(which i would also like to see between cup winner and league winner)

Super cups are still no match for finals football, though are of the same idea.

"Finals series" is a concept that was created exclusively for television, nothing more.  To use this year's NRL series as an example, what reward is there in seeing a team (The Warriors) that was not consistent enough over 26 weeks to be anywhere _near_ the top be one game away from being crowned the champions of that season??

It is an artifical creation that has no basis in reality.  Adelaide were the most consistent team in Season 1, owned all before them, yet we have to put up with the "inaugural Champions Sydney FC" bullshit.  The most thrilling round of football thus far in the A-League was our triumph on Super Sunday last season.  We were the best team _over the length of a season_, yet we have the bullshit of "Jets are Champions".   Being the best over 21 weeks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> winning one 90 minute playoff that is artifically constructed.

Take out the finals series, have an extra round of games, plus cup weekends, and there's your extra money that you'd lose from no finals.

Summary: Finals = Fail

+1

I dont really see how being the better side over a 90 minute period qualifies a team to be considered the champions. Last season we where the best team over 21 rounds, and we get the tag of premiers. The Jets win a game tagged as the HAL Grand Final, and are considered champions, it just doesnt make sense. Hopefully the introduction of extra teams and/or extra rounds eradicates the need for the money spinning finals series. The top leagues throughout the world dont have a playoffs series, and due to their cup competitions, have the cash cow and excitement that comes with do or die matches...as a_seperate_competition.

Knowing the FFA, if/when they introduce the FFA cup, they'll still include the post season cup claiming that it raises the profile of the game or some such. This is the role of the FFA cup, to take football to regional areas, do the bums on seats merchandise selling money making activities+provide a definitive do-or-die competition.

The decision about how big to make the competition I don't think needs to be solved in one blow. I think the first FFA cup could perhaps only include the HAL sides and State League sides. Gradually expanding from this, to include regional club sides such as Forza's beloved OVA and so forth. Another idea would be that the lower seeded sides get home advantage, to try and get HAL sides to regional Australia and raise the profile of the game in areas that could become goldmines for football. Obviously once the competition reaches its final stages play the games at the big stadiums to maximise value. For arguments sake say that CCM are drawn to play OVA. The benefits of playing the game at Bluetongue stadium are:

-Couple of thousand attending, you would assume that the Mariners would walk all over OVA. Rendering this game a training exercise and not much more

Playing this game at Scully Park(I dont know if OVA actually has a home ground-Forza this is your bit)

-Similiar attendance BUT bringing the stars to regional Australia means that kids can see players like Matty Simon, Adrian Caceras etc in action, and see that they have attained their goals, and inspire kids to do the same. Merchandising sales would be higher I would think, gives a financial boost to the host club-in the examples case OVA. And leaves open the possibility of a giant-killing act, which then raises interest within the town, as the local boys, on the local ground have done the impossible y'know.

Its all a pipedream of course, as I'm sure the FFA will have their own ideas, and their own agenda linked to the ideas.

Note- By the time this comp is up and running Matty and Adrian I would think will be overseas, but I just used the name to represent our star players.

Cups are decided over 90 minutes? What is the difference. You can have more than one cup.
The mariners were the best team over 21 rounds last year. But we got up on goal difference, and there are established traditional leagues where that would not have given us the premiers tag. Ironically we would have to play off in a final like match to find the winner of the league.

More football = win for me.
I love finals matches. Just because something is not traditional doesnt mean we shouldnt have it.

 

[~Floss~]

Seriously dont understand why we should throw away the extra income, and extra football of the finals. Why have less games? Why give away the extra crowds, media attention and excitment?

Re. Income, crowds, media attention & excitement:

Non-football sports-fans and media treat the FA cup as a Grand-final-type event; this is the way to please the football world and the rest of 'em IMO.

Re. "Why have less games":
Auburn's draft model fro the cup draw contains many more games than the current finals series. Even if you only count the rounds after HAL teams enter.

 

[Jesus]

Seriously dont understand why we should throw away the extra income, and extra football of the finals. Why have less games? Why give away the extra crowds, media attention and excitment?

Re. Income, crowds, media attention & excitement:

Non-football sports-fans and media treat the FA cup as a Grand-final-type event; this is the way to please the football world and the rest of 'em IMO.

Re. "Why have less games":
Auburn's draft model fro the cup draw contains many more games than the current finals series. Even if you only count the rounds after HAL teams enter.

I am not suggesting no cup. Cup is necessary. I am suggesting no need to ditch the finals for a cup. Especially without promotion/relegation.

I have made my point though, and heard others, so wont be spamming this thread anymore

 

[tuftman]

I can see perhaps that having a promotion playoff similar to what they have in England for the Championship could be used in our 2nd division when that kicks off

 

[dibo]

coupla brief points.

don't much like the american names - 'sweet 16' etc. - but that's window dressing, not a substantial issue.

i hate the SBS exclusive bit. by all means prioritise FTA, but it should be open tender. this is still business here, not charity.

an open entry cup (to 1st grade teams from whatever club in whatever league) makes sense, with qualification through regions to the formal draw. champions of champions could be worked in somehow, i think it provides an excellent model for a qualification system.

the details of home and away and whatnot - why not have the coin toss for home and away followed by 'taking turns' as in england? at least up to the semis anyway. spread the wealth.

 

[clarence]

Wow.... I've tried reading this a few times and each time my head spun out trying to read all of Auburn's post! Congrats to you Auburn for going so deeply into the thought of it all, top post.

OK an FFA Cup. So let's start with the basics and clear our head of any prejudices and pre conceptions.

The objective of the whole knockout comp. would have to be to introduce a revenue stream for lower leagues clubs, try and expose those under A-League level to the playing level expected at A-League level, and overall trying to improve both the profile and standards of all levels of Football in Australia.

If we are to be truly open minded about the objectives, then we have to also consider that should a State Leagues team (or even Morriset United or Gosford City  ;D )end up winning the whole thing, they'll be qualifying for the ACL!

Just a few random thoughts on the scheme.
1) Why call it the FFA Cup? How about the All Australia Cup. (as it does encompass all Australian comps.)

2) Does this mean scrapping the Finals Series, after the Premiership?
If we are going to be serious about getting a knockout comp up and running, the big carrot surely must be that those eventual winners would turn out for Australia as one of the ACL teams.
At present Australia has two reps for the ACL- the Premiers and the Champions. If you answer yes to giving an ACL spot to the winner of the Cup, then either the Finals series becomes a non event or you re-classify the meaning of Premiers, and award that title to the eventual winner of any Finals Series you may run to decide the Premiership. A hard call to make either way, there's pros and cons each side.

3) Weighting of subs/interchange against level of entrant club.
We all know that the A-League clubs would have a superior fitness level to the lower leagues. I laugh when someone mentioned Morriset and Gosford City going through, imagine the spanking they'd get if they drew the Jets or Mariners next round - or even a State League comp club.
So the idea of more subs and even an interchange is one to try and even up the expected match. But I'd be inclined to limit the higher quality comps' clubs to less subs and even no interchange. And when we get to an A-League club, just have the standard 5 subs on the bench and 3 to replace during the match.
Of course, should Morriset United draw the Jets, then Morriset would have about 7 subs/interchanges while the Jets would be restricted to the usual 5 subs on the bench and 3 subs on the field.

4) Stadium Tendering for the finals of FFA Cup.
Good idea, but I'd also be inclined to run that simultaneously with a TV rights tender. That way, the FTA TV networks can work in with the stadia management people and put in joint proposals to share costs, corporate sponsorships through contra deals with each other. Not in favour of giving the SBS people a free ride on this, there's too much cost and organisation involved to just 'gift' the televising of the final stages of this. Money has to be made from the whole venture, and that includes hitting the FTA networks with hard contract stipulations. NO midnight telecasts or putting the main match on their reserve digital channel.

 

[Auburn Mariner]

Hello once more,

As an epilogue to this thread, the proposal has been sent to the FFA & SBS.

Thanks Recky for the advice.

I am NOT overly hopeful of a response (I'm sure they would get a zillion crazy ideas like this), but what the hell, I have nothing to lose by trying.

AM

 

[Redline]

Be sure to let us know if you do get a response.

And they might get crazy ideas, but yours was a well thought out, articulate, logical, coherent and sensible idea.

 

[Dr Nick]

My 2c worth - A-league teams always play away, at least till its an A-league team vs A-League team

 

[serious14]

but yours was a well thought out, articulate, logical, coherent and sensible idea.

Thus the FFA will reject it. 

 

[Lisarow Yellow (Pooley)]

Ok im a newbie soccer/football fan here, so you might need to bare with me.

Im a supporter of the finals series. I can understand some people's arguements that winning one game at the end of the season doesnt make you a champion, but this is Australia. The HAL isnt the EPL or other European comps. It should be designed and run with a australian feel to it and that means grand finals.

If that isnt enough how about this. The premiers are top of the table after 21 rounds. The top 4 clubs qualify for the chmpionship cup. Think of the grand final as not a GF but a championship cup final. Even try to start getting the Media to call it that (that works in the US as more and more media outlets refer to the baseball world series as the fall classic).

Auburn's Idea is a good one. His Idea's of Conferences allows a better chance for upsets to appear and could even lead to great derby's that usually wouldnt take place (i.e a fremantle team and glory). dividing up NSW would be hard though getting different teams appears to be the hardest part in all that.

we could always just do a draw at the start of the season so you could get a team from adelaide v's Bankstown United.

If we can get this cup up and going it would make it eaiser to set up a relgation and promotion system. which i think would allow us more spots in the ACL.

 

[clarence]

I have had some more thought on Auburn's proposal.

I was wondering why this sort of idea hasn't popped up before at an official level? 

The entry into the AFC Champions League makes a reference to the Premiers and the Champions of each member country qualifying, and the way Australia does it now is kinda a botched way of establishing the Premier and the Champion teams.

We do it within the context of one national competition, and the winner of the Finals Series becomes the Champions and the first past the post of the season becomes the Premiers. Other countries tend to have a season winner (Premier) and a national knockout comp winner (Champion).

So we are at odds with other member countries and they could argue to the AFC that we are only involving the best 8 (10) teams in the country and not allowing the lower grades to try to qualify.

It would be best if some sort of knockout comp. was established so we are in line with what the AFC really wants to happen, before it is imposed upon us to change our format.

Now one sticking point I see with Auburn's proposal is the involvement ( or rather the proposal's lack of ) of the various Associations, both peak State and Regional bodies and the District Associations.

Particularly when Auburn's proposal doesn't include them having any say and their own 'borders' not at all recognised. They are a minefield of differing opinions, ranging anywhere from the 'old sokkah' brigade's last bastions, the down outright corrupt and local mugs ripping off punters, to progressive thinkers etc......

In short the thought of going through those Associations and telling them this is how it's going to be run, would be like trying to tell a mischievous 3 year old NOT to touch that hot iron.

Whatever you say to them, no matter how polite, there will be some Association somewhere that will want to do things differently, anything from getting a bigger financial bonus for participating to having a say on who they nominate to represent them even though the comp's idea is not to have reps of Associations blah blah....... A political nightmare.

My guess is that if Auburn's idea gets a run through the FFA, many at their Board level would look at all the comps. throughout Australia and who is running them at District, Region and State level and realise they will have to deal with some bitter enemies as well as many friends alike.

Their only hope would be to look to the A-League clubs and see what friendly affiliations they have built up and firstly invite those Associations or lower league clubs to the comp. just to get it going. Then make it very clear that the comp has to be run under FFA's control only, and that all are welcome so long as they realise who is actually running the comp. and not try to chisel their way into getting things all their way.

We have seen some of the State League & ex NSL clubs that survive making overtures about trying to gain entry into the A-League at some later stage, now that they see that it is a viable successful competition.

I suppose the knockout comp. could start out small and then expand quite easily from year to year, as the ones left out realise it's better to be involved and fighting for a possible ACL spot than to left on the outer bleating about the lack of resources they have.

 

[Jorome Alexander Bennett]

It could be a way to get all the associations in line.
If the associations meet the specified criteria their teams can compete.
If the associations are poorly run, they get stiffed.
That could be the biggest benefit.

Imagine how good football in Australia would be if all associations were run with the same level of excellence as that of the FFA, or better.
The FFA cup is a fantastic carrot.

 

[dibo]

I was wondering why this sort of idea hasn't popped up before at an official level?

who says they don't? frankie has said in the past he likes the cup idea, there's been idle talk here and there, but talk of models etc. hasn't been public if it's been happening. it may be that they feel we're not ready yet, and i can understand that - they might want to get the screws tightened on the expansion sides first before they go in for a cup.

 

[Sean]

what i am wondering is how they would fit in the amount of games that would need to be played in order to include teams from the lower divisions all the way to the HAL. Play this Bi-annually? or cut off the entry level only allowing rep teams (CC lightning etc - that level)

 

[Jesus]

I have had some more thought on Auburn's proposal.

I was wondering why this sort of idea hasn't popped up before at an official level? 

The entry into the AFC Champions League makes a reference to the Premiers and the Champions of each member country qualifying, and the way Australia does it now is kinda a botched way of establishing the Premier and the Champion teams.

We do it within the context of one national competition, and the winner of the Finals Series becomes the Champions and the first past the post of the season becomes the Premiers. Other countries tend to have a season winner (Premier) and a national knockout comp winner (Champion).

So we are at odds with other member countries and they could argue to the AFC that we are only involving the best 8 (10) teams in the country and not allowing the lower grades to try to qualify.

It would be best if some sort of knockout comp. was established so we are in line with what the AFC really wants to happen, before it is imposed upon us to change our format.

Now one sticking point I see with Auburn's proposal is the involvement ( or rather the proposal's lack of ) of the various Associations, both peak State and Regional bodies and the District Associations.

Particularly when Auburn's proposal doesn't include them having any say and their own 'borders' not at all recognised. They are a minefield of differing opinions, ranging anywhere from the 'old sokkah' brigade's last bastions, the down outright corrupt and local mugs ripping off punters, to progressive thinkers etc......

In short the thought of going through those Associations and telling them this is how it's going to be run, would be like trying to tell a mischievous 3 year old NOT to touch that hot iron.

Whatever you say to them, no matter how polite, there will be some Association somewhere that will want to do things differently, anything from getting a bigger financial bonus for participating to having a say on who they nominate to represent them even though the comp's idea is not to have reps of Associations blah blah....... A political nightmare.

My guess is that if Auburn's idea gets a run through the FFA, many at their Board level would look at all the comps. throughout Australia and who is running them at District, Region and State level and realise they will have to deal with some bitter enemies as well as many friends alike.

Their only hope would be to look to the A-League clubs and see what friendly affiliations they have built up and firstly invite those Associations or lower league clubs to the comp. just to get it going. Then make it very clear that the comp has to be run under FFA's control only, and that all are welcome so long as they realise who is actually running the comp. and not try to chisel their way into getting things all their way.

We have seen some of the State League & ex NSL clubs that survive making overtures about trying to gain entry into the A-League at some later stage, now that they see that it is a viable successful competition.

I suppose the knockout comp. could start out small and then expand quite easily from year to year, as the ones left out realise it's better to be involved and fighting for a possible ACL spot than to left on the outer bleating about the lack of resources they have.

As far as i am aware it was down to colaboration between the ffa and acl that the champions and premiers get in. But either could get stiffed for cup winner, though more likely 1 3rd acl spot would wrap it in a nice little bow

 

[dibo]

what i am wondering is how they would fit in the amount of games that would need to be played in order to include teams from the lower divisions all the way to the HAL. Play this Bi-annually? or cut off the entry level only allowing rep teams (CC lightning etc - that level)

qualifying tournaments etc. just like we qualify for asia by winning the league, there could be some sort of 'if you rank this high in the comp then you get a spot in the FFA cup qualifying draw' do.

 

[Jorome Alexander Bennett]

what i am wondering is how they would fit in the amount of games that would need to be played in order to include teams from the lower divisions all the way to the HAL. Play this Bi-annually? or cut off the entry level only allowing rep teams (CC lightning etc - that level)

qualifying tournaments etc. just like we qualify for asia by winning the league, there could be some sort of 'if you rank this high in the comp then you get a spot in the FFA cup qualifying draw' do.

Entry criteria based on performance and whether the club is run well or not. We don't want too much canteen money to go to mentalists.

 

[Paolo]

If we are to be truly open minded about the objectives, then we have to also consider that should a State Leagues team (or even Morriset United or Gosford City  ;D )end up winning the whole thing, they'll be qualifying for the ACL!

Please edit your post...."When Morisset United, Gosford City or OVA end up winning the whole thing"  kk thnx