SMH Articles: "Catholics welcome, Muslims not" + Hillsong schools drive

[dibo]

Catholics welcome, Muslims not

Sunanda Creagh Urban Affairs Reporter
September 9, 2008

IT IS the tale of two schools. The Camden residents' group that fought a Muslim society's proposal for a school in rural Camden has welcomed a Catholic organisation's plans to build a school nearby because "Catholics are part of our community".

The president of the Camden/Macarthur Residents' Group, Emil Sremchevich, said the Catholic school plan "ticked all the right boxes", even though he is yet to see its development application.

"Catholics are part of our community so we should be supporting it on this basis alone. We have to welcome them," Mr Sremchevich told the Herald. "To become part of a community, you need to live in the community. You can't just turn up."

The Quranic Society said Mr Sremchevich's comments were racist but he rejected that tag. "Why is that racist? Why is it discriminatory? It's very simple: people like some things but don't like other things. Some of us like blondes, some of us like brunettes. Some of us like Fords, some of us like Holdens. Why is it xenophobic just because I want to make a choice? If I want to like some people and not like other people, that's the nature of the beast." Mr Sremchevich was among those who applauded a Camden Council decision in May to reject the Quranic Society's application to build a 1200-student school at Burragorang Road, Cawdor. The council said it was refused "on planning grounds" but one resident, Kate McCulloch, said Muslims would not fit into the Camden community.

"The ones that come here oppress our society, they take our welfare and they don't want to accept our way of life," she said then, when she had hoped to follow Pauline Hanson into politics.

Now the Catholic Education Office of Wollongong has bought the 150-student Mater Dei special needs school in Macquarie Grove Road. It wants to retain Mater Dei and build a 1000-student high school on the same plot. It is less complicated than the Quranic Society application, which would have required rezoning. The Mater Dei site is already zoned for a school.

A spokesman for the Quranic Society, Issam Obeid, said: "Everyone can see there is a double standard No one knows anything about the Catholic school and they say, 'Yeah, give it a tick already.' I think racism is affecting this."

A spokesman for Wollongong's Catholic Education Office, Peter McPherson, said more schools were needed in south-west Sydney to cope with population growth. "Our site is currently a school zoning so we don't believe we will have any problems with rural zoning issues," he said.

Mr Obeid stressed that he did not object to the Catholic plans. But he said the society's school would have taken non-Muslims. "The council said they rejected us because of traffic and zoning, but I think if we didn't have the backlash from the community then it could have ended very differently. We want to integrate into the community but they won't let us."

Before the vote, protesters placed pigs' heads on stakes and draped an Australian flag between them on the proposed school site.

Camden's Mayor, Chris Patterson, said religion had nothing to do with the the council's decision in May. "And this DA will be treated exactly the same. The council will take into account traffic, amenity, noise."

A Quranic Society appeal will be heard in the Land and Environment Court later this month.

All clarsh in Camden...  :

 

[Kareem]

good ole bogan Camden
tbh i couldnt really care whether a catholic school is built there- but u gotta love the discrimination?
What's this crap- some of us like blondes and some of us like brunettes?
side note: my dad likes blondes- my mum is a brunette (Thankfully that didnt matter)
my dad loves Holdens (He is a big fan) but he's first car was a Ford
Thank God I live in a community that isnt 100% full of bogans...
I know I may cause contraversy by saying this
Newcastle>Camden

 

[dibo]

meanwhile...

Hillsong's schools recruitment drive

Paul Bibby and Josephine Tovey
September 9, 2008

A NETWORK of Christian youth ministries with links to the Hillsong Church is attempting to recruit members in public schools through free lunchtime concerts and barbecues called "Exo days", church manuals reveal.
Exo or Excellent days are free events run by Christian students under the direction of Youth Alive, an arm of the Australian Christian Churches - formerly the Assemblies of God - of which Hillsong is the largest member.

Youth Alive describes the events as "a free lunchtime festival put on by the Christian students as a gift to the school", but a leaders' manual prepared by the body reveals that Exo days are aimed at recruiting students to their local youth ministry.

A teacher at one public school said students had returned to class after an Exo day concert complaining about attempts to convert them, while the Federation of Parents and Citizens' Associations says it is an attempt to sneak evangelism into schools and reveals the need for new laws.

The Exo day instruction manuals obtained by the Herald include numerous references to recruitment and evangelism.
"The whole goal for Exo week and Exo day is to see your youth ministry grow," it states.
"The vision is to see evangelism and growth come from the students themselves in your youth ministry."

The manual includes "testimony" from a youth minister working outside Newcastle who states: "Exo day started a rapid increase in the number of salvations within our youth ministry.
"But, most importantly, Exo day has given our young people the belief that they can take their schools for Jesus."

The Youth Alive website indicates that about 30 NSW public schools have registered to hold Exo days.

Manuals given to the Christian students refer to Exo days as an opportunity to "show our peers that God wants us to have an excellent life" and encourage them to promote the event at school. Youth Alive declined to comment.

The revelations follow recent Herald reports that Hillsong was running its Shine program - aimed at young women - in at least 20 NSW public schools.

The NSW Education Act says that "instruction" at public schools must be non-sectarian and secular except in designated religious education classes.

The NSW upper house Greens MP, John Kaye, said Exo days went against the spirit of the act, but that there was a need for new laws specifying "clearly and precisely who is allowed on school campuses and who is not".
"Parents send their children to public schools in the anticipation that they will not be indoctrinated," Mr Kaye said.
"What these ministries are doing is seeking to rip off that legitimacy and authority and use it for their own purposes. We need a protocol that makes it clear that these kinds of things should not be happening."

A spokesman for the Department of Education said the events were not a cause for concern as they were not compulsory. He denied they breached departmental guidelines.

Neil Simpson, the principal of Batemans Bay High School, where Exo days have run for several years, agreed they were within guidelines. "It's 40 minutes at lunchtime there's no hard-core message or evangelising," he said.

Mr Simpson said he was happy for students to be exposed to different cultural experiences, likening Exo days to the indigenous event NAIDOC.

However, a number of public school teachers said students had complained about evangelism.

A spokeswoman for the Federation of Parents and Citizens' Association said religious recruitment in schools was inappropriate. "We need to ensure that children when they go to school aren't exposed to discreet evangelism," she said.

 

[T]

Why can't religion be left out of schools???

 

[Paolo]

Why can't religion be left out of schools???

marketing, if u want to make money out of people you have to get them whilst they are young....worked on me

This comment was brought to you by Coca-Cola

 

[MattSimon]

People want to build an Islamic school in Australia where around 1.5% of the population are Muslim, and the area they want to build in certainly has a lesser number of Muslims than the national average. They are denied.

What if I wanted to built a Christian school in a semi-rural area of Libya / Pakistan / UAE / Algeria (each nation has a Christian population of less than 3%)?

I'd be told to fark right off.

So until they let me build my dream school full of delicious nuns just one hour outside of Tripoli, they can shove their accusations of "double standards".

 

[dibo]

If there's demand for a school (and I dont honestly know whether there is, but I presume there is because otherwise why would they want to build there) then why on earth should there not be one?

If we are so much more enlightened than Libya, Pakistan, UAE and Algeria (and Id be surprised if none of those countries have Christian schools especially Pakistan and Algeria given their colonial histories), then why should we stoop to the less principled, less tolerant standards that some people imagine prevail elsewhere?

1.5% of the population is some 300,000 people, or larger than the population of the Central Coast. Its also larger than the number of Pentecostals (which includes Hillsong) and Buddhists and much larger than the number of Jews, and yet there are Jewish schools.

Id be no more fond of the idea of a Catholic school than a Muslim school both are based on ideologies which I think are anywhere from misleading (at best) to dangerous (at worst), but if people choose to attend their places of worship send their kids to their schools then thats their business.

 

[MattSimon]

Sure Christian schools may already exist in the countries I mentioned, except perhaps Libya, but my issue would be whether or not locals would object to my proposal to build a *new* one in a semi-rural, 99.99% non-Christian area.

The counter-argument that we should not stoop to less principled, less tolerant standards that may prevail elsewhere is exactly my point - Camden residents denying the Muslim school and approving the Christian school is them being *as* unprincipled and intolerant as the complainants would likely be were the situation reversed. Irrespective of whether or not one perceives the residents' decisions as inappropriate, complaining of a double standard is, in itself, a double standard.

 

[dibo]

why should building a new one or allowing an existing one to continue operating be an issue *if the demand is there*? surely the proposers' desire to build a school indicates a level of unmet demand is there and thus makes a lie of the notion that it's a 99.9% christian area?

there's a back story to the camden proposals - the catholic school is in an area zoned for schools while the muslim school is in an area zoned rural, but this is not a point best made by putting pigs heads on stakes with an australian flag draped between them.

in their public comments over the last few month the locals that have shown up at rallies down there as well as certain members of the local council have made a point of talking up the 'cultural inappropriate' nature of the development rather than the legitimate zoning concerns.

this follows on from similar issues some years ago in annangrove in the north-west of sydney, where a proposal to build an islamic worship centre was knocked on the head in a similar climate of flag draped aggression.

and yet at the same time we have hillsong not merely going about their business in their own time and place but running concerts at public schools. i realise that the concerts are at lunchtimes and that the barbecues are not likely to have been compulsory, but there is still somewhat of a captive audience at a public school (kids under 15 don't actually have the choice to not go).

imagine if an islamic group went to do the same thing?

furthermore, other interest groups like political or other social groups don't get this sort of access to students (and i'm not arguing that they should either!) so what makes hillsong so special and entitles them to go and do this? seems a bit off to me.

 

[clarence]

The Quranic Society's plans require rezoning, and the Council has previously said they had concerns about traffic flow etc.

The Catholic mob have bought an existing school and have plans to build a high school on it - it is already zoned for a school, and I guess the locals in the area are used to having the traffic flow that occurs with schools, there.

The comments made that Residents Action Group people are pretty inciting.

Re: Hillsong.

The public school system already has specified religious education classes. That's it.

I bet if the Church of Scientology or The Salvos turned up there'd be an uproar.

Fine if Hillsong want to put on a concert with no religious strings attached.

If, as a parent, you feel your kids need more religion in their lives you have the option of going to any Church you want to go to, outside school hours or even take the kids to a private religious school. But while the kids are enrolled in a public school they shouldn't have to get any more religious fervour than that offered as per the curriculum.

 

[clarence]

why should building a new one or allowing an existing one to continue operating be an issue *if the demand is there*? surely the proposers' desire to build a school indicates a level of unmet demand is there and thus makes a lie of the notion that it's a 99.9% christian area?

The council people expressed concern about traffic issues with The Quranic Society's proposal, I believe, and that gives rise to the impression that a lot of students would be from 'out of town'. And you know how red neck some small town folks can get? The Catholics' proposal is already on school-zoned land, so the residents in that area are used to traffic, perhaps?

Is there anything in the latest available Census figures that would indicate an increasing number of residents in that area, who lay claim to being Muslim (to prove the demand aspect)?

 

[dibo]

if i were writing their applications i'm sure i'd be including that sort of info, but the mere will to build it would indicate there's some demand. what other reason would there be to want to build it? would anybody build a school with the knowledge it would sit empty?

the formal report of the council cited zoning issues, but the people looking to rally public opposition have been playing darker cards.

 

[clarence]

if i were writing their applications i'm sure i'd be including that sort of info, but the mere will to build it would indicate there's some demand. what other reason would there be to want to build it? would anybody build a school with the knowledge it would sit empty?

the formal report of the council cited zoning issues, but the people looking to rally public opposition have been playing darker cards.

* Without knowing what was in the Quranic Society's proposal, you can only speculate on what you read here.
1) 1200 students implies not all students will be locals, based on pure population percentages.
2) Did they propose accommodation and resident students?
3) Or did they propose to transport in and out, each school day, a large proportion of those 1200 students? If so, did they offer any transport solutions or just hoped for the local community to cope with 'x' number of parents' cars, minibuses, and maybe a school bus to the nearest train station -and the flood of students and inherent problems there? All of this does have a genuine impact on a small town, and the local residents have a right to express some concern.
4) Re: Why build there? Maybe the land is a little cheaper there than in the main Sydney metro, and they could get a bigger lot of land for the same $$.
5) In some areas nearby, but in the Sydney metro, there may not be any similar sort of school. Even though there is some distance involved to and from school, the parents of the proposed students may be happy just knowing their kids are getting a better religious instruction.
6)Religion can play a large part in some families irrespective of which religion they follow, and they may regard more religious instruction, as worth the price they may have to pay to send their kids to such a school.
7) The local residents action group is using the sensational headline grabbing rhetoric, so they get everyone jumping up and down. It's racist and should not be done, particularly as there's enough concern based on the transport and local usage angles alone.

^^^^This stuff, and the Large Halidon Collider thingy Thread, make my head hurt.

I'm having a liedown. :ashamed:

 

[dibo]

top post

 

[MattSimon]

(1) Have you been to Camden? I would be surprised if more than 2 were locals!
(2) It's not a boarding school. All (except the 2 I mentioned) would be bused in.
(3) Traffic is not an issue in Camden even with an additional 1200 people toing and froing.
(4) It's next on the list in terms of planned Muslim strongholds.
(5) There is only one Islamic school I know of in NSW, in Greenacre. Due to *lack of demand*.
(6) True story.
(7) Camdenites are media whores!
(8.) The large Halidon Collider is a massive conspiracy.

 

[serious14]

A delightful reinforcement of how much a racist backwater we really are..... a damn shame.  This country has so much potential.

P.S.  F*ck off Hillsong.

and the Large Halidon Collider thingy Thread, make my head hurt.

I WILL NOT HEAR A BAD WORD AGAINST THE COLLIDER!!!! 

 

[Kareem]

some good points against the school Clarence.
But the problem isnt those...I would be happy if they were
the problem is their reasoning- its racist, not as rational as Clarence.
one resident, Kate McCulloch, said Muslims would not fit into the Camden community.

"The ones that come here oppress our society, they take our welfare and they don't want to accept our way of life," she said

"Why is that racist? Why is it discriminatory? It's very simple: people like some things but don't like other things. Some of us like blondes, some of us like brunettes. Some of us like Fords, some of us like Holdens. Why is it xenophobic just because I want to make a choice? If I want to like some people and not like other people, that's the nature of the beast."
This is from a key community head??? shocking really

like it was summed up
"The council said they rejected us because of traffic and zoning, but I think if we didn't have the backlash from the community then it could have ended very differently."
Can anyone 100% tell me they honestly believe the Camden's protest wasnt somewhat influential?
Like I said before- who would want to go there if they werent wanted...

On a side note: you guys what would be your view on a muslim school on the coast? Would you take to the streets- pigs heads in hands?

 

[Kareem]

meanwhile...

Hillsong's schools recruitment drive

Paul Bibby and Josephine Tovey
September 9, 2008

A NETWORK of Christian youth ministries with links to the Hillsong Church is attempting to recruit members in public schools through free lunchtime concerts and barbecues called "Exo days", church manuals reveal.
Exo or Excellent days are free events run by Christian students under the direction of Youth Alive, an arm of the Australian Christian Churches - formerly the Assemblies of God - of which Hillsong is the largest member.

Youth Alive describes the events as "a free lunchtime festival … put on by the Christian students as a gift to the school", but a leaders' manual prepared by the body reveals that Exo days are aimed at recruiting students to their local youth ministry.

A teacher at one public school said students had returned to class after an Exo day concert complaining about attempts to convert them, while the Federation of Parents and Citizens' Associations says it is an attempt to sneak evangelism into schools and reveals the need for new laws.

The Exo day instruction manuals obtained by the Herald include numerous references to recruitment and evangelism.
"The whole goal for Exo week and Exo day is to see your youth ministry grow," it states.
"The vision is to see evangelism and growth come from the students themselves in your youth ministry."

The manual includes "testimony" from a youth minister working outside Newcastle who states: "Exo day started a rapid increase in the number of salvations within our youth ministry.
"But, most importantly, Exo day has given our young people the belief that they can take their schools for Jesus."

The Youth Alive website indicates that about 30 NSW public schools have registered to hold Exo days.

Manuals given to the Christian students refer to Exo days as an opportunity to "show our peers that God wants us to have an excellent life" and encourage them to promote the event at school. Youth Alive declined to comment.

The revelations follow recent Herald reports that Hillsong was running its Shine program - aimed at young women - in at least 20 NSW public schools.

The NSW Education Act says that "instruction" at public schools must be non-sectarian and secular except in designated religious education classes.

The NSW upper house Greens MP, John Kaye, said Exo days went against the spirit of the act, but that there was a need for new laws specifying "clearly and precisely who is allowed on school campuses and who is not".
"Parents send their children to public schools in the anticipation that they will not be indoctrinated," Mr Kaye said.
"What these ministries are doing is seeking to rip off that legitimacy and authority and use it for their own purposes. We need a protocol that makes it clear that these kinds of things should not be happening."

A spokesman for the Department of Education said the events were not a cause for concern as they were not compulsory. He denied they breached departmental guidelines.

Neil Simpson, the principal of Batemans Bay High School, where Exo days have run for several years, agreed they were within guidelines. "It's 40 minutes at lunchtime … there's no hard-core message or evangelising," he said.

Mr Simpson said he was happy for students to be exposed to different cultural experiences, likening Exo days to the indigenous event NAIDOC.

However, a number of public school teachers said students had complained about evangelism.

A spokeswoman for the Federation of Parents and Citizens' Association said religious recruitment in schools was inappropriate. "We need to ensure that children when they go to school aren't exposed to discreet evangelism," she said.

Exo days have been at Gosford High School for years now.... Did feel a bit irky about the feeling of it but hey I didnt attend school Friday's after 1pm- these were once a term maybe and school made a pretty big deal about them. Dunno if they have been doing them this year

 

[hasbeen]

Just a small point here ... discrimination based on someone's religious persuasion is not racism.

 

[MattSimon]

Just a small point here ... discrimination based on someone's religious persuasion is not racism.

Some people have a very broad conception of racism. Discrimination based on religon is defined as "racial discrimination" (ie. racism) under the UN definition. I agree with you, though. I see the two as distinct.

Hillsong's recruitment drive seems very crass. There are similar things going on at university and if you're unlucky enough to be bailed up by one of these guys, they strike me as almost pushy, like used car salesmen trying to get you in for a sale.