Payne's handball?

[Mr Cleansheets]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed on another thread...

A lot of fuss has been made of Payne's "handball" goal on Saturday night, but in the rules of the game, a handball must be deliberate to warrant a free kick. If it's not deliberate, it's play on...isn't it?

You hear people occasionally talk about advantage or no advantage in determining whether to award a free kick (and what greater advantage is there than a goal?), but the rules don't (as far as I know) talk about advantage/no advantage. I think that is just a convention that's crept in as an aid to interpreting whether a handball was deliberate.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that if Payne's handball was not deliberate, then the correct decision is play on, even it means immediately blowing for a goal. Wasn't there a Socceroo goal fairly recently that looked like it came off Wilkshire's bicep when he was unsighted? No-one made a fuss about that (at least no-one in Australia).

Having said all of that, if it happened to the Mariners or the Socceroos I'd be livid.

 

[kevrenor]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed on another thread...

A lot of fuss has been made of Payne's "handball" goal on Saturday night, but in the rules of the game, a handball must be deliberate to warrant a free kick. If it's not deliberate, it's play on...isn't it?

You hear people occasionally talk about advantage or no advantage in determining whether to award a free kick (and what greater advantage is there than a goal?), but the rules don't (as far as I know) talk about advantage/no advantage. I think that is just a convention that's crept in as an aid to interpreting whether a handball was deliberate.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that if Payne's handball was not deliberate, then the correct decision is play on, even it means immediately blowing for a goal. Wasn't there a Socceroo goal fairly recently that looked like it came off Wilkshire's bicep when he was unsighted? No-one made a fuss about that (at least no-one in Australia).

Having said all of that, if it happened to the Mariners or the Socceroos I'd be livid.

It is an interesting case in the interpreting of the laws of the game. Yes it must be deliberate. 

Deliberate: a legal definition might be "Done with or marked by full consciousness of the nature and effects; intentional".  So the referee has to assess both the action and its intent, ie. get into the mind of the player. Big ask.

In Chris Payne's case of course referee Green is mute. He has not stated that he saw the hand to ball or ball to hand. If it does not go to the review panel, then prime face he did, and didn't believe it was 'deliberate'.

In my view it was deliberate, as he moved his arm down and foward as the ball passed his head. But I wasn't the referee and I am blessed with multiple slow motion replays.

 

[FFC Mariner]

Deliberate - he wasnt going to get his head to it so he stuck his arm out.

Fair enough, you play to win and he got away with it.

Wanker to celebrate the way he did though - says a bit about him

 

[dibo]

His hand was in an unnatural position (i.e. out in front of his head). In this circumstance he needn't spike it into the net like a bad volleyballer for it to be considered hand-to-ball - he shouldn't have his hand there in the first place if he's got no intent to use it illegally.

It's like a bloke with his arm in the air above a wall. He might have his arm in the air for five minutes before the ball's kicked, but if he doesn't mean for the ball to hit it then why is he sticking it up there?

This contrasts with a situation where say a player whose arms are in a natural position by his side and who has the ball deflected onto his arm and then into the net. If he doesn't move towards it and so makes no deliberate attempt to play the ball with the arm then it's not handball and the goal should stand.

 

[mariners4ever]

Deliberate - he wasnt going to get his head to it so he stuck his arm out.

Fair enough, you play to win and he got away with it.

Wanker to celebrate the way he did though - says a bit about him

+1 IMHO i dont care much the way he did the hand ball, but to celebrate it like that is just stupid and makes me happy that we didnt sign him. Then to come out and tell the sydney coach, who then tells the media that he admitted it is stupid again.

 

[scottmac]

Absolutley deliberate and surprised that he got away with only light media attention, especially after the celebration. If it had happenned the week before Melbourne would have been in an absolute spin.

 

[Jerem]

disgrace ive never known anyone to header with their arm that far out infront of their head,
intentional and i believe stole the pheonix momentum and swung the game, i believe if it not happened the result may have been quite different

 

[Mr Cleansheets]

I didn't think it looked like a deliberate action. If you're running and lunge forward with your head down, it's very likely you'll throw your arm up as a reflex action to keep your balance.

But what did he admit? Did he admit to deliberately knocking the ball into the net, or did he just admit that he was aware the ball hit him on the arm? And with Lavicka's command of English, who could possibly tell?

And what would have happened if he'd owned up to the ref? If I was the ref, who'd already signalled a goal, and he told me it came off his arm. I'd say: did you mean to do it? And if he said no, I'd let the goal stand.

I'm not going to judge a 19 yo surrounded by celebrating team mates and fans when the ref's signalled a goal in a preliminary final...unless, of course, it happened against the Mariners.

 

[Blair]

We have shit refs when ppl except that, and thats its  always going to be apart of football the better. It happens all the time .

 

[radar]

it's not illegal if you don't get caught

 

[midfielder]

Needed Sydney in the GF for both press and crowd ...

 

[FFC Mariner]

Ah yes, Uncle Frank - forgot about him

 

[adz]

was a rushed behind, give it a point and get on with the game

 

[FFC Mariner]

Have you sent that guy all your personal details yet?

 

[adz]

Sent him yours, hope you don't mind

 

[FFC Mariner]

No, just means I will get my share of the $20m.

Haha, fell for it

 

[Nik Mrdjas Disco Bikkie]

Wanker to celebrate the way he did though - says a bit about him

What do you want him to do? He's come off the bench, scored a brace quite early (legit or not it was given) to give his side the lead in the prelim final, he's 19, pumped up and the crowd and team mates are going crazy, anyone would have celebrated that.

 

[Jaza_SFC]

I don't think it's intentional, but it was f**king stupid and IMO any handball spotted at that angle in the box would get called by any sensible ref. It's high enough that it's out of place (thus you can claim intent easily enough), and despite the actual laws I don't think anyone would like goals like that being awarded.

That said, I say it's unintentional because I've seen play more than just about anyone and I know he's an incredibly awkward player to watch. Saturday night was typical Payne - awesome play for the first goal (drops the shoulder, charges forward, buries a difficult finish), and then utter insanity amongst incredibly awkward technique a few mins later. The only thing different this week was the terrible technique usually has him butchering chances, not getting a fluke goal.

FWIW in today's Australian he claims that it hit his arm but his arm was just thrown up in motion. I believe him. And tbh Colosimo was jumping on his back in celebration (while Payne still looked kinda awkward like he was expecting it to be called off) straight away so it's a bit much to say he should've handed it back.

Pity it's taken the shine off a cracking game that we probably deserved by more than 2 goals.

 

[FFC Mariner]

My issue is more with yet another piss poor example of AR'ing. What do they watch coz it sure as hell isnt the game.

The ref wouldnt be expected to see that from behind the player - its the AR who is supposed to be inline.

Fitter, professional officials please FFA

Simple fix is the 4th official has a tv feed and quickly confirms (or otherwise) whether a legitimate goal has been scored.

FIFA's usual argument about all rules have to be the same at all levels is just bollocks. All top flight games in each country are televised so just do it for them and all internationals.

Or are games harder to fix if you stamp out dodgy goals?

 

[Bex]

video ref - no thanks. It doesn't prevent mistakes; just makes them less understandable.