Mariners 2017/2018- The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[Ancient Mariner]

This is just my uneducated view as to why this team is not performing.


The Style of football.

There is nothing wrong with what Okon is trying to achieve by playing possession football. It is really the only way to play the game if you are to be successful. You hold the ball, you control the game. Simple football 101. I think Ange with Brisbane demonstrated that clearly.

The Jets are successfully playing counter attacking football very successfully as shown by their position on the ladder. However they will not defeat the top teams who have organized defences and who do not turn the ball over cheaply. I suspect they will probably finish 3rd or 4th.


Why is it not working.

Again quite simply we do not have the quality players to play this way and win games. Our strength is clearly in our two defensive midfielders. Our defence is reasonable without being anywhere near the best in the league. Goals conceded have mostly come through defensive errors where we have gifted the opposition goals. However, mistakes always happen and should be overcome by scoring more at the other end.

Our problems are clearly in the front third.


The front third problem.

A lot here are saying our front third would be fixed by having a striker who can find the back of the net. I still think that is not the solution. We may score the odd extra goal with a new striker, but that is not the solution.

The problem as I see it is we have absolutely no combinations working nor understandings between players when we get in the front third.

Okon’s attacking style is to have a winger cut in and create an extra attacker in the middle. We thus end up with three and sometimes four players around the “D” getting in each others way, wondering what to do next or watching DDS beat player after player but never looking dangerous because he has no options.

The team also attacks slowly into that final third which gives the opposition defence time to organize.

The attack should begin just inside the opposition half where there is still space to make runs forward. Having said that other teams are able to start their attacks in the final third and score why can’t we?

This goes back to the earlier observation that there is no combination or understanding between our players.

There is definitely no one touch and move play that is so essential in that part of the field. Players make runs and are ignored or passes are made to players not making runs.

A lot of the problem is due to having many different combinations of players in the positions of wingers, #10 and striker.

Okon has recognized where the problem is but has not been able to fix it or, if I am generous to him, has not been able to fix it yet


Other teams use defensive coaches in addition to their manager. Do we need a supplementary attacking coach?


Enough for one post. I will give my opinions on the players in the next part of this ramble.

 

[Insertnamehere]

Good idea this one.

I think the tactics are wrong for the personnel. They are too complicated and the players don't get it. DDS, Tommy H, Brama look the only ones capable. What is the point of 60% possession when you lose?
If okon is to stay he needs to gut his coaching Dept and start again. I suggest vidosic as an asst. Obvious parallels with roar. He built that system with Ange and okon is trying unsuccessfully to revive it.

I think coaching is under rated for making players overachieve. I don't know that the players understand their roles or are being given too much to do. The best coaching is simple and built upon.
Example with Appiah. His job when the team has the ball should be to stand shoulder to shoulder with a last line defender facing towards goal looking to run onto the ball. Without the ball Harry the men in his zone with the ball.

An end of season review of the football operations need to be undertaken. Just like other professional sports who underachieve do. Identify the issues provide the recommendations. Worked for the Richmond AFL team.....

 

[Ozhammer]

I think some of the behind the scenes issues are avoidable with better decisions by the coaching staff. By that I mean;

a) Paolo goes on record on last week’s podcast by saying he only manages to find time for 25 minutes of tactical work each week. Why FFS? Surely match fitness levels should be at peak this far into the season (barring players who have been injured or bought into the team late), so training should be about conditioning and tactics, with tactical work surely being at least as important as the conditioning if not more so.

b) From my understanding there is a drinking culture within some of the younger playing group, which is quite significant. Surely Paolo needs to addres this, assuming that he is aware of it, as it has to affect player performance to to some degree. As I understood it, Arnie had a strict no drinking policy in-season, so why doesn’t Paolo? PGFC has a similar issue by all accounts and look how they are travelling, it ain’t rocket science people.

c) Failure to at least spend the salary cap is a false economy and will more often than not lead to the team never truly being able to go on to glory unless the moneyball approach just happens to deliver one time in a hundred (if you’re extremely lucky). We all appreciate that MC is not in a position to tip stacks of money into the club but to repeatedly spend the absolute minimum and expect it to work is nuts. IIRC Shaun went on record in pre-season saying the cap would be spent this time, which could be argued as fraudulent representation in light of subsequent disclosures. Why should fans be asked to shell out their hard-earned year after year when the owner isn’t even spending the cap on the playing roster?

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

25 minutes of tactical work??? What on earth are they doing for the rest of it?

 

[Ancient Mariner]

I think some of the behind the scenes issues are avoidable with better decisions by the coaching staff. By that I mean;

a) Paolo goes on record on last week’s podcast by saying he only manages to find time for 25 minutes of tactical work each week. Why FFS? Surely match fitness levels should be at peak this far into the season (barring players who have been injured or bought into the team late), so training should be about conditioning and tactics, with tactical work surely being at least as important as the conditioning if not more so.

b) From my understanding there is a drinking culture within some of the younger playing group, which is quite significant. Surely Paolo needs to addres this, assuming that he is aware of it, as it has to affect player performance to to some degree. As I understood it, Arnie had a strict no drinking policy in-season, so why doesn’t Paolo? PGFC has a similar issue by all accounts and look how they are travelling, it ain’t rocket science people.

c) Failure to at least spend the salary cap is a false economy and will more often than not lead to the team never truly being able to go on to glory unless the moneyball approach just happens to deliver one time in a hundred (if you’re extremely lucky). We all appreciate that MC is not in a position to tip stacks of money into the club but to repeatedly spend the absolute minimum and expect it to work is nuts. IIRC Shaun went on record in pre-season saying the cap would be spent this time, which could be argued as fraudulent representation in light of subsequent disclosures. Why should fans be asked to shell out their hard-earned year after year when the owner isn’t even spending the cap on the playing roster?

If there is as you say a drinking culture within the club, it could explain the significant absences of the odd player, LR perhaps. If drinking is affecting performance, dropping those involved sends a pretty clear message. Total bans are unenforcible and meaningless.

The money provided by the FFA to cover the salary cap is being totally spent. It is not being spent totally on player salaries. The minimum required by the FFA is being spent on player salaries. The rest is being spent on running the club and hence remaining a viable operation.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

You should listen to the podcast Cap’n.

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

I do sometimes, I'll listen to this one. They do good work

 

[Big Al]

This is just my uneducated view as to why this team is not performing.


The Style of football.

There is nothing wrong with what Okon is trying to achieve by playing possession football. It is really the only way to play the game if you are to be successful. You hold the ball, you control the game. Simple football 101. I think Ange with Brisbane demonstrated that clearly.

The Jets are successfully playing counter attacking football very successfully as shown by their position on the ladder. However they will not defeat the top teams who have organized defences and who do not turn the ball over cheaply. I suspect they will probably finish 3rd or 4th.


Why is it not working.

Again quite simply we do not have the quality players to play this way and win games. Our strength is clearly in our two defensive midfielders. Our defence is reasonable without being anywhere near the best in the league. Goals conceded have mostly come through defensive errors where we have gifted the opposition goals. However, mistakes always happen and should be overcome by scoring more at the other end.

Our problems are clearly in the front third.


The front third problem.

A lot here are saying our front third would be fixed by having a striker who can find the back of the net. I still think that is not the solution. We may score the odd extra goal with a new striker, but that is not the solution.

The problem as I see it is we have absolutely no combinations working nor understandings between players when we get in the front third.

Okon’s attacking style is to have a winger cut in and create an extra attacker in the middle. We thus end up with three and sometimes four players around the “D” getting in each others way, wondering what to do next or watching DDS beat player after player but never looking dangerous because he has no options.

The team also attacks slowly into that final third which gives the opposition defence time to organize.

The attack should begin just inside the opposition half where there is still space to make runs forward. Having said that other teams are able to start their attacks in the final third and score why can’t we?

This goes back to the earlier observation that there is no combination or understanding between our players.

There is definitely no one touch and move play that is so essential in that part of the field. Players make runs and are ignored or passes are made to players not making runs.

A lot of the problem is due to having many different combinations of players in the positions of wingers, #10 and striker.

Okon has recognized where the problem is but has not been able to fix it or, if I am generous to him, has not been able to fix it yet


Other teams use defensive coaches in addition to their manager. Do we need a supplementary attacking coach?


Enough for one post. I will give my opinions on the players in the next part of this ramble.

Pain vs Mierzejewski or Leroy George. He can’t even clean there shoes.
Who is our backup LW. We don’t have one. We convert strikers and RW’s hoping for the best.
Kekeris our next out and out LW is either to young or not deemed good enough yet. He should have got a go by now. Only way to know is to give him a go much like Wales.

Appiah is beating Trent. Why. Trent is a pussy and gets pushed off everything but he has the speed and cross but lackes effort desire.

Powell and who ever else is feeding on scraps at best and like all A League stikers will miss there fair share. There are not alot of opportunities to begin with.

DDS has alot of work to do on his vision. His striking is weak however he has an awesome motor and has had to work with to many different wingers and strikers. The combos are not there and just when we needed him most he had to go play for Australia.

Wales is a promising young kid with a good set piece and cross. His ball to powell was good but he has turned the ball over alot. In his defeat he had to start on his non preferred side. That said it’s part of the modern game that you play both sides.
His fitness is not up to it as well. Has an awful lot to work on.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

Time to discuss the cattle.

Last year and supposedly this year our strength was supposed to be our speed. We had players with that one thing you cannot teach, speed to burn. I used to enjoy our wingers dragging off the opposition and taking the ball to the by-line and cutting back in.

As mentioned in the first post of this rant the tactics now seem to be to take the ball to the front third and bring it back in field where we run out of space. This is appearing totally ineffective and I am not sure if it is to play to our current players strengths (ie get it to DDS asap to see some magic) or is taking the ball to the by line and crossing against the philosophy of possession football? Maybe it has changed since we lost Roy and Bingham proved to be ineffective as a target man along with a short arse like Asdrubal coming on the scene. However it was our only true effective method of attack last year and it has not been replaced by anything else.

The players:
Paine: is probably the best winger in the club but his speed seems to have vanished this year. Last year he could take the ball to the by-line then beat players along that line to create havoc. It has not been much in evidence this year and I am not sure why. Possibly gone for a far while.
Appiah: has had more than enough discussion here already. All I can say is that he is the only winger we have at the moment who can create havoc in the opposition. However, he can not find someone to finish (his fault or the positioning of others), he can shoot, but usually straight at the keeper and leaves a lot to be desired with decision making. Maybe it will come but so far this season he has been much more effective off the bench. I like to think he is still a work in progress but has much to learn.
Hoole: looks to me to possibly be a flat track bully (to use a cricketing term). Destroys weak oppositions but is pretty useless against quality. He is definitely not a #10 but Ikon has him cutting back in all the time where he runs out of options. He has shown promise at Jets, Sfc, back to Jets and then us but has never really delivered in the A-League. Now it appears there may be a problem off the field, rumour only but worrying. He does have the ability to shoot if he gets a chance. Is the reason he is not getting those chances our method of attack?
TBT: was meant to be the next big thing. The fastest player in the League. He looked promising last year, but was has happened to the development of that raw talent? Is it the new style of attack or has he not been able to develop his skills to a satisfactory level. Rumors of a big head in the off season may explain it but they are just probably rumours looking to explain the lack of development and/or success.
Lachy: is a future talent which I look forward to seeing develop, but has been thrown in the deep end very suddenly. To soon as yet.
Overall the above mentioned five should have enough talent for the position of winger not to be a problem. However it is. Maybe because we have had five and not two regular wingers is part of the problem. Which brings us to probably the greatest potential talent in the squad:
DDS: who reminds me of a much better model of Wee Mac with an order of magnitude greater talent and ability. He can beat a player, has unbelievable ball control, can lay off a pass, play one twos, and has one of the best engines in the League. Added to that he is tough and works his butt off. Unfortunately he lacks a strong shot. Luckily for us if he did he would be playing in a top club in a top Euro League. He truly needs players around him and a good striker to take advantage of his skills. I was hoping our next name would provide that:
Powell: is a a real striker probably more workmanlike than brilliant, but can find the back of the net and can get in position. I was, and am still hoping he can build a combination with DDS we saw one brilliant goal a few weeks ago between the two. I want to see more.

This attack should be playing much better than it is. Understandings have not been developed and no one seems to know what to expect. Truly this can only come down to coaching. Maybe it is because our attacking line up has never been settled that these understandings have not developed. It is not the fault of our two DMs who provide wonderful balls to the attack. There is a definite lack of one touch football, give and goes and one twos, which are what you need to break down resolute defences. At the start of last year we saw glimpses of this fast attacking style and my mouth water maybe we have become too possession oriented to take risks. It reminds me of a great Wally Lewis quote when criticised by Bennett for making too many mistakes which went somewhat along the lines "If you try things mistakes will happen, would you rather I not try".

As I asked above do we need an attacking coach to help out? Or do we need to give the players there heads a bit more in attack? Or do we need to spend more than 25 minutes a week on attack and should be spending every available minute developing understandings in the final third?

At the moment I am seeing a great talent (DDS) wasted.

I am not suggesting joining the Okon out camp but he may be managing too much to a textbook style and maybe being a bit blinded by fitness numbers which should be used as an aid but not a reason in decision making.

Time for a scotch.

 

[tim...]

As sad as things may seem, it still only takes a couple of games (even just one) to turn things around. We're still in the mix for sixth place despite no wins since December 3. A win v Wanderers next Sunday *could* send us as high as 6th pending other results.

That's how shit the A-League is right now.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

Pain vs Mierzejewski or Leroy George. He can’t even clean there shoes.
Who is our backup LW. We don’t have one. We convert strikers and RW’s hoping for the best.
Kekeris our next out and out LW is either to young or not deemed good enough yet. He should have got a go by now. Only way to know is to give him a go much like Wales.

Appiah is beating Trent. Why. Trent is a pussy and gets pushed off everything but he has the speed and cross but lackes effort desire.

Powell and who ever else is feeding on scraps at best and like all A League stikers will miss there fair share. There are not alot of opportunities to begin with.

DDS has alot of work to do on his vision. His striking is weak however he has an awesome motor and has had to work with to many different wingers and strikers. The combos are not there and just when we needed him most he had to go play for Australia.

Wales is a promising young kid with a good set piece and cross. His ball to powell was good but he has turned the ball over alot. In his defeat he had to start on his non preferred side. That said it’s part of the modern game that you play both sides.
His fitness is not up to it as well. Has an awful lot to work on.

Great summation BA.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

As sad as things may seem, it still only takes a couple of games (even just one) to turn things around. We're still in the mix for sixth place despite no wins since December 3. A win v Wanderers next Sunday *could* send us as high as 6th pending other results.

That's how shit the A-League is right now.

Agree, but it won't take much to send us plummeting either. Whatever the case our problems are real.

In attack Ancient, I agree re one touch and much of your assessment, and I think we just do not have the calibre of technical player to break down a settled defence. Which means we need to attack in transition (which is where most of our goals have come from) but for the most part we do not play or set up as a counter attacking team.

Right now the way we play at the very least we need someone who can threaten aerially, or knock the ball down to someone else, so we can whip in balls and be consistently dangerous. A faster striker would also have opportunities fairly regularly based on our recent weeks of play. Mainly though, playing how we do, what we need are smarter more skilful players capable at running at defenders (not just on the break like Kubi) and then equally capable of playing smart triangles and little lobs and sliding balls through etc... we simply do not have players of that level of ability once the space gets that compressed. In that regard, you could consider it a coaching error in so far as persisting with a tactic we do not look skilled enough to execute.

As to getting to the byline... I love percentage football. Always happy to see it. And I wish we played direct a bit more often too. But you need a striker who can keep pace with a Kubi or Pain, and midfielders who can/will run on to provide second waves of attack and options for cut backs. I'd like to see more of this. Instead our strikers have so far been all over the shop. Sometimes back post, sometime near, sometimes the cutback, sometimes none of the above. Our wingers and 10 clearly have no idea where the striker will be or what runs they will make. But it's not our most common a problem as we prefer to recycle the ball instead and try to move our opponent side to side... That is coaching, it's not "wrong" perse, just a different choice. But does it become wrong when it's not working... this is where Okon's stubborn streak may be costing us and him. He looks at all the chances missed, and thinks it's working, but again those chances are usually on the end of a fast counter, and that is not how he mostly has us playing.

I'd like to see the stats on our goals scored against a settled defence. Would be very low I think.

Bottom line, as you, Big Al and others have said, the problems with our attack, are not just our 9.

 

[Coast Football Ramble]

I do sometimes, I'll listen to this one. They do good work

Listen to the Okon interview, he describes the usual training week.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

I hear a lot about chances missed. But most of what I see missed are only half chances. Yes we miss some clear chances but just getting into the opponents box is not a chance.
I hear people round me screaming shoot when a player gets close to the box but is fully covered by the defence and they regard it as a another chance missed.
We get into great positions and that is where it stops. I do not call that a missed chance. It is a missed opportunity.
I agree with FP that a new striker will not necessarily be the complete answer. It would definitely help but the problem is deeper.

 

[Big Al]

Tactically the attack

I hear a lot about chances missed. But most of what I see missed are only half chances. Yes we miss some clear chances but just getting into the opponents box is not a chance.
I hear people round me screaming shoot when a player gets close to the box but is fully covered by the defence and they regard it as a another chance missed.
We get into great positions and that is where it stops. I do not call that a missed chance. It is a missed opportunity.
I agree with FP that a new striker will not necessarily be the complete answer. It would definitely help but the problem is deeper.

Agree however just one small point I’ve seen a few games where the attacker is covered and shoots anyway and the defender moves his leg to block and sometimes it goes through the leg or rebounds in for a deflected goal or rebounds to another attacker. Sometimes we do just need to have a ping. Sometimes keepers spill easy ones or hard ones as well

 

[tim...]

I hear a lot about chances missed. But most of what I see missed are only half chances. Yes we miss some clear chances but just getting into the opponents box is not a chance.
I hear people round me screaming shoot when a player gets close to the box but is fully covered by the defence and they regard it as a another chance missed.
We get into great positions and that is where it stops. I do not call that a missed chance. It is a missed opportunity.
I agree with FP that a new striker will not necessarily be the complete answer. It would definitely help but the problem is deeper.

We get into a goalscoring position enough times (ball across the face of goal, sitters missed, one on ones) that we should have arguably won most games. They are missed chances for mine.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

We get into a goalscoring position enough times (ball across the face of goal, sitters missed, one on ones) that we should have arguably won most games. They are missed chances for mine.

I think you're both right.

 

[pjennings]

We only have 3 days to find a gun striker. Is Skapetis that person, on his first team record I wouldn't hold my breath. So we do really need to find someone. TBH a goal sneak like Lujic would do me. He can't be worse (or much worse) than what we have seen this year. Admittedly he would have to be a substitute because he won't have the fitness levels needed off the bat. But a striker is needed and if between Powell. Skapetis and Lujic we should be able to fashion a few more goals...

For all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over our defence/goalkeeping on the weekend it has been reasonably good. We had a couple of gifted goals on the weekend and Melling did another in his first game. They come down to game naivety and knowing when you have to play it safe.

But if you take away the shellacking we got in the first round we have conceded just 20 in the remaining 17 games (including the said 3 gifted goals). That is good enough for a top 4 position. The goals scored is what is dragging us down to spoon contenders.

 

[Insertnamehere]

We only have 3 days to find a gun striker. Is Skapetis that person, on his first team record I wouldn't hold my breath. So we do really need to find someone. TBH a goal sneak like Lujic would do me. He can't be worse (or much worse) than what we have seen this year. Admittedly he would have to be a substitute because he won't have the fitness levels needed off the bat. But a striker is needed and if between Powell. Skapetis and Lujic we should be able to fashion a few more goals...

For all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over our defence/goalkeeping on the weekend it has been reasonably good. We had a couple of gifted goals on the weekend and Melling did another in his first game. They come down to game naivety and knowing when you have to play it safe.

But if you take away the shellacking we got in the first round we have conceded just 20 in the remaining 17 games (including the said 3 gifted goals). That is good enough for a top 4 position. The goals scored is what is dragging us down to spoon contenders.

Joey Gibbs....... Put a few through us in FFA Cup and is a local boy....

 

[Forum Phoenix]

We can only spend on a proven striker I think and we need better than what we have. That would be a very optimistic assessment when it comes to Gibbs.