FFA set to look into second-tier comp

[Dutch Wives]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/football/a-league/ffa-set-to-look-into-secondtier-comp/2009/05/22/1242498921133.html

"OLD soccer" may finally be embraced by "new football" after Football Federation Australia this week set up a task force to investigate the viability of establishing a national second-tier competition within two years.

In a move which will thrill state league clubs around the country - many of them survivors from the old NSL- the governing body is ready to engage second-tier football for the first time since the A-League was established in 2005. A national second division, and the less likely possibility of promotion and relegation, are among the key issues to be discussed.

Former FFA chief executive John O'Neill famously coined the catchphrase "old soccer versus new football" when describing the future direction of the game - a description which caused huge resentment in the game's ethnic heartlands.

But since Ben Buckley replaced O'Neill in late 2006, the FFA has gradually worked at repairing those broken relationships, and this week's move to re-engage the various state leagues represents a huge, symbolic, breakthrough.

An eight-man task force - including state federation and state league representatives as well as the new head of the A-League, Archie Fraser - has been established to investigate second-tier football, and where it can fit into the development pathway. Despite being marginalised, state league clubs have continued to develop talent for the A-League, although the transfer cap of just $3,000 has been one of many sources of discontent.

Key issues to be investigated by the task force include:

* The viability of an interstate competition (national second division)

* The relationship between the state leagues and the A-League (promotion and relegation)

* The relevance of the state leagues to the player development pathway and the various state institutes and the AIS

* The future timing of state league seasons, in particular the effects of switching to summer

* Introducing a licensing system for state league clubs

* Transfer and loan regulations between state league clubs and the A-League clubs.

A key motivation behind the FFA's renewed interest in the future of second-tier football is the desire to gain more berths in the Asian Champions League. Currently, Australia has just two ACL spots per season, but the FFA hopes to earn extra places when the entry requirements are reviewed in 2012. Two of the requirements the FFA has failed to meet in the past are the existence of a national Cup competition, and a second-tier league with a system of promotion/relegation.

 

[~Floss~]

Good to see they're investigating these things.

While I appreciate the geographical difficulties presented in Australia, cost and logistics aside I think a national second-tier is the right direction t be heading if it could ever be feasible.

Promotion/relegation, a seeded national cup competition and the death of the finals series are my own preferences for the long-term format for the sport, not that i ever thougt they would be possible any time soon.

 

[Arabmariner]

"A national second division and the less likely possibility of promotion and relegation"..........?

If there was no promotion and relegation what would be the point ?

It certainly wouldn't get us an extra spot in Asia.

 

[David Votoupal]

Why a 2nd division when the A-League needs to be expanded first? A 12-14 team league first thank you, then keep it going strong before you can even think of those things.

 

[Kareem]

"A national second division and the less likely possibility of promotion and relegation"..........?

If there was no promotion and relegation what would be the point ?

It certainly wouldn't get us an extra spot in Asia.

+1

 

[Jesus]

"A national second division and the less likely possibility of promotion and relegation"..........?

If there was no promotion and relegation what would be the point ?

It certainly wouldn't get us an extra spot in Asia.

+1

It would likely get us the asia spot as the afc would see we were chasing the goal.

I think as long as the salary cap is measured, and there is some sponsorship, it could do alright. Though would think a new tv deal would be required to fund it.

 

[thomas477]

Maybe a FTA TV deal for the 2nd tier

 

[Redline]

Yeah you would think that the 2nd tier would go FTA not Fox.

Also, if the geography is such an issue, why not split the country into two conferences like the NBA? Qld/NSW/Vic and then SA/NT/WA.

Certainly be tough to get it all up and running, but it would add so much to the competitions...promotion / relegation is a must, and they have consider super sunday. I don't know why they don't already. you could schedule all last round games to take place on the Eastern Seaboard, or push the eastern seaboard games back to say...an 8pm kick off on the saturday night which would then make any game in SA at 7.30, and WA at 6pm. Would be aweomse.

 

[johnnymariners]

Will not happen for many many years

 

[FFC Mariner]

Surely you would keep the existing State PL structures and have national playoffs.

One day, that winner could play off for a place in the HAL.

FTA would not want the 2nd tier product

 

[Jesus]

Surely you would keep the existing State PL structures and have national playoffs.

One day, that winner could play off for a place in the HAL.

FTA would not want the 2nd tier product

Agree would be absurd for 2nd tier on FTA. Fox is the only ones who could possibly be interested in showing it, and it would not make much cash.

My meaning was a new rights deal should give the FFA far more money, and be more able to cover costs of such a league.

Presumably would have to be IMO,

- semi-pro
- salary capped
- allowed loans from a-league clubs
involved in FFA cup
- Could possibly start in confrences, but i think the ffa would prefer national.
- NSL clubs would have to be rebranded, eg how south melbourne wanted to join a-league as southern cross or something.

But then i would assume would go on top on state leagues. Thus allowing winners eventually to get promtion/entry to asia. State league would continue i would think, but lose a few clubs, some rebranded.

If that was the case most b-league clubs would have better training/youth facilities than a-league clubs. Meaning it comes down to finances and stadiums.

Some stadiums would not be a problem, and others if they got promoted would need an adequate stadium nearby.

Finances would be helped in a new rights deal. But until then would be hard to see it not leaking funds.

If the new deal is worth a fair chunk, you could see the ideal situation of the b-league being professional, and then having promotion and relegation.

Either way, exciting times if it is done right

 

[Kareem]

we would want to put the unsuccessful bidders into 2nd tier?
eg. with Tassie, Canberra, WSyd, the Gong (only 1 will be granted in the next group of additions)

After thinking about it...perhaps no promotion/relegation for 2 years- until league is properly settled?

EDIT: for at least 2 years

 

[midfielder]

IMO a P & R is 10 years away or 2 media deals ...

 

[Arabmariner]

It's hard to see any teams from either Adelaide or Perth being involved in any 2nd tier comp.Both cities only had one team each in the old NSL.I would imagine that the fans of both these clubs are more or less the same fans as before.I don't think the football population is there to support another team in either city.

So a 2nd tier is likely to be eastern seaboard based at least until promotion and relegation come into it.I think what Kareem said regarding no up or down for a couple of years until it settles is a good idea.I do think it has to happen though.If certain clubs are regularly finishing at the bottom of the table that shouldn't be acceptable.

But first we need the numbers up in the A-league and we need to be careful we don't relegate too big a percentage of the league as it would just lead to half the league playing in fear and the standard would suffer.

A mixture of new "franchises".....I hate that word.........and the more professional state league clubs could work if it's handled right.Between that and a national cup competition we could get shot of the post season comp for good.We'd have championship and relegation/promotion battles going on all over the shop.

As for CCM I think we would survive "the drop" if it ever happened.I think our hardcore is big enough to be drawing at least 6-8,000 during a crap season.Challenging for promotion and being near the top would possibly even increase the crowds.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out but imo without promotion and relegation there is no point.It has to happen eventually and not in 10 years either.

 

[Sacko]

WTF 

I'm fast losing respect for the FFA, how on earth can they introduce a 2nd tier to a team with so few teams in it and which imo is already streching the "talent" pool too thinly!

 

[Arabmariner]

WTF 

I'm fast losing respect for the FFA, how on earth can they introduce a 2nd tier to a team with so few teams in it and which imo is already streching the "talent" pool too thinly!

I get your point but it's not meant to be the same level as the A-league.

The way I see it it's just restructuring the lower levels of the game.

 

[dru]

I wonder how long the license agreement with NQ and GC was? not going to happen anytime soon. Could be a way of increasing the a-league as teams win the 2nd division they get promoted to the a-league until it and the 2nd division has equal numbers

 

[Kareem]

+ 1 Arab- it's a good idea to restructure lower levels of the game


One of my concerns is (and I have no idea on tha matter- so please enlighten me)

Say Marconi (or South Melbourne etc.) get promoted- wat 5 of Sydney FC fans (or Victory- if Sth's) are ex/also Marconi fans?
Will it damage there fan base?


Also- how many promotion/relegation leagues in the world have a salary cap?


Lastly- with such a small league (ie. only 10 teams- soon to be 12)- the gap between the top + bottom would be small. I am assuming 2 team relegation?
My gripe (forgive me please) is the fact that a team like (key word) the Jets could get relegated (i wish they did anyway) from one season pretty good (2nd place)- to last place... without having the chance to rebuild?

My solution is copying the Argentinian league
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primera_Divisi%C3%B3n_Argentina#Relegation_and_promotion

Relegation is based on an averaging system. At the end of each season, the two teams with the worst three-year averages are relegated, and the best two teams in the second division are promoted. The teams placed 17th and 18th in the averages table play the "promocin", a promotion and relegation playoff, against the 4th and 3rd second division teams respectively in a two-leg format decided on points but not aggregate goals, like the format of Copa Libertadores from 1960 to 1987. Thus, the number of teams promoted each year varies between two and four. Newly-promoted teams only average the seasons since their last promotion.

Averaging was instituted in 1983, two years after San Lorenzo de Almagro were relegated in 1981. That year, River Plate finished 18th out of 19 teams and would have been relegated under the old system. Racing Club and Nueva Chicago were the first teams to be relegated on average.[1] Boca Juniors was also struggling at that time and had a dismal 1984 season. These facts have led some to speculate that the averaging system was instituted to minimize the chance of large clubs being relegated.

It rewards consistency

Just an idea- maybe I'm scared of our fortunes for the coming season

 

[Arabmariner]

I never knew about the Argentine system.It's worth looking into.

Relegation can sometimes affect big clubs for years afterwards.Smaller clubs are less likely to suffer as much.

Using Scotland as an example,simply because I know more about it than any other league.....when they first formed the Scottish Premier league they went from the old 1st Div of 18 teams with 2 up and 2 down to a league of 10 teams with 2 up and down.The first season of the new league ended with 6 teams involved in a relegation battle with Dundee(not Utd) being relegated along with St Johnstone.

Traditional big clubs by Scotlands standard like Hearts,Hibs and Dundee were all relegated within the first 6 or 7 seasons of the new league.Dundee Utd and Aberdeen escaped that 1st season on goal difference.They rectified it after a few years by making it 1 up and down then a few years later increased the league to 12 teams.

Clubs like that suffer greatly from a decline in attendances when relegated whereas the smaller clubs crowds tend to fluctuate a lot less.

I kind of see us in that last bracket where our crowds are less likely to drop dramatically with relegation but also don't increase 10 fold when doing well.Melbourne and Sydney imo would be a different case altogether and would suffer greatly if relegated.

Summing up, any small country by footballing standards can't afford to have it's bigger clubs relegated.Whether you gaurd against it by using a system like the Argentine one or make sure the percentage of clubs relegated is not one fifth of the league like they did in Scotland is up for debate.

 

[Bear]

A second tier will fail, simple

With teams in the a-league failing to make money, it wont work unless foxtel triple their payment to air the league, and a sponsor comes on board who has no problem going broke